Milled/printed Prusa Style Printer

New Home Forum Mostly Printed CNC – MPCNC Your Builds – MPCNC Milled/printed Prusa Style Printer

This topic contains 252 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of WarHawk8080 WarHawk8080 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 253 total)
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  • #9596
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    Waiting on the bed, working on the extruder mount. Might need some tweaks still. MP3DP, milled printed 3D Printer?

    #9603
    Profile photo of MJ
    MJ
    Participant

    It’s finally here! Nice!! The whole thing looks clean and sturdy – unlike many of the Prusa derivatives out there. How’s she move so far?

    #9604
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    Thanks. Haven’t ran it yet, had to clean up all the dust that MDF kicked up. Some of the parts might be a little close for comfort, need to let it print for a few days and see if I need to change anything major. Then I’ll put all the parts up, and the BOM. Hopefully design and print the extruder mount tomorrow.

    None of the smooth rods are trapped, not sure if they need to be or not. With good bearings it shouldn’t be an issue but….better safe than sorry?

    #9605
    Profile photo of Dave Gun
    Dave Gun
    Participant

    Very cool!

    How big is the Build area?

    Dave

    #9610
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    Thanks.
    With the MK extruder it should just get 200x200x200. I just put a bed on it and realized with the clips on the glass you don’t get a full 200….hmmmm. It’s the little things that drive me insane.

    #9612
    Profile photo of Aze Aze
    Aze Aze
    Participant

    Nice. I’m a bit late, but Skarab (who already made the Lautr3k reprap and other cool machines) already did almost the same thing. Lots of french guys have this printer now, because it’s strong and there are very few printed parts and it’s very easy to build (it was made to help Fablab to do some workshop. Same ideas in fact:
    http://reprap.org/wiki/ITopie/fr

    #9617
    Profile photo of Aze Aze
    Aze Aze
    Participant

    Sorry, for the french link: see this one. You can customize everything for your needs: https://github.com/lautr3k/RepRap-iTopie , it’s a really nice work.

    #9619
    Profile photo of danzca6
    danzca6
    Participant

    Hmmm, the beginning of the Vicious MP3DP army. You need to laser engrave your brand on that thing. Oh, and paint it black! Haha! Looks great though. Is that a design you came up with or was it something already online? If yours, is this going to be plan available for the peasants? Vicious, you are doing a great job inspiring us (me) to be better makers.

    #9620
    Profile photo of Dave Gun
    Dave Gun
    Participant

    It’s the same Prusa style, but I kind of like the Vicious style printer better.

    Dave

    #9621
    Profile photo of Jeffeb3
    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    A real work of art. Congratulations. I would really like to make something like this, just to say that I have. I wouldn’t mind making one a lot smaller, actually. I have a 200mm size wanhao, and I rarely use all of the space. It would be cool to make a smaller one so I could have a loaner for people who are interested in it, but don’t want to take the plunge themselves.

    #9624
    Profile photo of Ryan
    Ryan
    Participant

    Ryan (other ryan). Having owned 9 different 3d printers now I can tell you that you DONT want to enclose (trap) the top of your Z axis lead screws. ANY variation in their straightness (its hard to get perfectly straight ones) will be translated in to your prints if it isnt allowed to release itself with a slight deviation at the top.
    More easily stated, Trapping a nut on the Z axis doesnt allow that slight movement it needs.

    SO there is really 2 options. Leave them open at the top (which a lot of these printers do, like the makerfarm, but he uses lower quality lead screws) and that gives them room to move.
    My taz 5 captures them at the top, and ANY slight deviation in the straightness of the lead screw presents itself in Z axis banding on your prints (repeatable bands, every time that Lead screw hits the curvature point).

    Thats my take on it.

    I am VERY interested in making this printer . I have many others, but I am working on a job that may require a fleet of printers to be running for a while. This would be a nice cost effective way to build some.

    Any option to make it bigger?

    #9626
    Profile photo of Ryan
    Ryan
    Participant

    another thing. either you (ryan) or the community needs to device a method of toolhead changes as well for this printer.
    The ability for me to swap toolheads , with different nozzles , etc on the taz is REMARKABLE. i cant say how nice that is.
    What would be REALLY cool is to devise a system by which we can screw on (taz comes off with 1 m3 screw) a pen tool, a laser tool, etc.
    I think that can all come in time, but removeable toolheads are a must on any printer i own now.

    also, and if youve never trusted a word ive said before, Trust this. Devise a system for Auto Bed Leveling. . This is the single best feature ANY printer can offer. its fairly easy to devise ( i did it on my makerfarm) and to never have to worry about leveling, is maybe the best thing in the history of mankind (outside of the microwave, internet or ATMs)

    i will be a guinea pig on this machine ryan. count me in day 1 build (ive built 4 other printers + you MPCNC)

    #9633
    Profile photo of C
    C
    Participant

    That looks great. I guess with the amount of the machine that’s made up of milled parts you could even call it MM3DP (Mostly Milled 3D Printer) ;-P

    If you want to trap the leadscrews at the top and bottom, how about an Oldham coupler to sort out potential Z wobble?

    #9637
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    Wow, I love it. I think it would be so much more rigid, and less parts.

    Well I won’t be putting anymore effort into this one. Finish up the extruder mount so this wasn’t a complete waste of 3 weeks.

    Dang, I love the y belt setup… and that flattop piece for the bed. This solves a lot of issues. I wonder why this isn’t a more popular machine?

    #9638
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    I meant the smooth rods, I’m wondering if they might slip out.

    Seriously though that printer @aze aze linked, https://github.com/lautr3k/RepRap-iTopie It actually looks perfect to me. I only built this because I was super unhappy with what was out there, for the prices they are offered at. I looked for a milled printer and did not find anything even decent. That itopie looks absolutely perfect to me.

    #9641
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    This is built for a snap on tool mount, kinda like my ramps case.

    I am not a fan of auto bed leveling, but is in the firmware just add an endstop. Both my robos /hadit, I took it off one while I had to replace some bearings and will take it off the other. once the bed is level its good to go. I had to shim the robo bed with paper between the magnets but these prusa style 3 spring beds are simple to set. I guess I just have something against the z motors always working, add not perfect threaded rods in the mix and you get worse prints.

    #9657
    Profile photo of Dave Gun
    Dave Gun
    Participant

    The magnetic Z stop sensor of my Printerbot quit working about a week after I first started printing. While I was waiting for a replacement printerboard, I leveled the bed using shims of paper and removed the auto leveling G code. I use a sheet of paper as gauge between the hot head and bed for the first layer. The prints started coming out better then when the Z stop worked. I did get the Z stop fixed, but I still prefer to print without autoleveling. I now only use the Z stop for homing.

    #9663
    Profile photo of Ryan
    Ryan
    Participant

    that sucks you guys have had bad experiences with auto bed leveling. its like anything else on a 3d printer, it takes a little work to get it right..
    Also some printers have better systems than others.
    The one i put on my makerfarm prusa printer was flawless.
    There are a lot of factors on how easily a printer is to get off level once its configured. I use PEI as my print surface, which if done correctly makes your prints adhere like CRAZY….IN that case you have to work to get parts off sometimes, and sometimes losing level a bit.
    Or in the case of the taz 5 i have. I have 2 extruders, each are slightly different nozzle heights, it takes some work in S3D and on the bed each time i swap to make sure they are perfect. Its in inexact science, but ill never own a printer again with ABL.
    My Gcreate that is due this week or next JUST got it finished as an option, so its shipping on my printer 🙂

    I am excited to build your printer ryan. I am going to make some serious mods to it, as I have an idea for a commercially viable printer. What better place to start than building one from my MPCNC 🙂

    #9668
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    I’ll put up everything as soon as I run at least 1 real test print.

    #9669
    Profile photo of MJ
    MJ
    Participant

    Auto leveling is an interesting feature, but I think some people equate it to a fix all (not implying you do). Unfortunately, while it may help with first layer adhesion, it does not compensate for a poor design or bad build. However, auto-homing the Z-axis is nice and coupled with a solid build, it does have its merits.

    #9701
    Profile photo of Ryan
    Ryan
    Participant

    of course not.. if you have bad design in lead screws, or x axis carriage design , z wobble etc will always rear its ugly head.
    However, assuming the build is solid, the design of it is good, and everything is tight and precise, auto bed leveling will mitigate the next biggest issue faced by 3d printers. Layer #1.
    If layer 1 is off, the rest of the print may as well be scrapped. Not always, but a great first layer sets itself up for the rest of the print.

    #9702
    Profile photo of Dave Gun
    Dave Gun
    Participant

    I have not had a bad experience with auto leveling, I have used both methods and just prefer manual leveling. Manual leveling is easy, and it only needs to be done once when the printer is first turned on. I have printed for days without needing to readjust it. The printer does not need to go through the auto leveling sequence at the start of each print.

    To use the manual method, it takes it requires the extra step of leveling the bed and this can be a challenge. I have only had to do this once since I built my printer a year ago. I feel a level bed improves the quality of the prints no matter what method you use. I was fortunate to be forced to learn the manual method, because I still prefer to use it today.

    For most people I would recommend using Auto-Leveling. These type things are what is making 3D printing usable to the masses. I’m sure some day someone will make one as easy to use as a paper printer is today. But for us who like to build things from scratch, and take things apart to learn how they work, manual leveling is still an option.

    Dave

    #9704
    Profile photo of ztbex
    ztbex
    Participant

    Looks really good! I was already looking into adjusting the p3steel design for milling.
    http://reprap.org/wiki/P3Steel

    I have a friend who owns one and they are really good and there are already tons of add ons. However the frame is made to be lasercut with very tight tolerances that a mill probably won’t be able to achieve.

    #9706
    Profile photo of Ryan
    Ryan
    Participant

    I dont disagree with what you say dave, and I ertainly didnt intend to hijack this thread in to an Auto Bed Leveling discussion.
    While I also agree that its quicker to print without it. When i added it to my makerfarm it took about 2-3 minutes at the start of the print to hit all the points.
    I think i have such a strong feeling for ABL because of a few main reasons..

    1. Most ABL systems only touch the four corners. However The one I used had 9 touch points. The bed can have variations much more significant than the four corners. Almost all heated beds heat horribly unevenly. Ive seen a set temp of 100 degrees C, be 99 at the center and as low as 45-60 on the outside (a big part of warping parts, of course a heated build chamber is a key play too). a 50 degree swing in bed temp can adversely affect how much expansion the bed undergoes and thus the distance from the nozzle. So my 9 point ABL routine caught most of that.
    2. Mostly eliminates my need to wait around for the first 10-15 minutes of a print. I know its going to work. Where as on my taz 5, which is widely considered to be one of the best printers on the market *sub 3000$* is not perfect due to imperfections in PEI (the print surface they use on top of glass).
    3. Any system where you have the ability to change extruder carriages (like the taz, or my soon to arrive gcreate) there will be minor differences (its up to 1mm on my taz) in how high the new extruder carriage sits above the bed, due to nozzle size changes etc. The way Ryan is designing this, it appears as though there will be some system in place to change toolheads out, which immediately makes ABL an important thing (or every time you change toolheads you have to relevel).

    Please dont take this as me arguing with you Dave, or others. Its just a topic that I think deservers discussion, and since there are probably quite a few folks that havent either built or used a 3d printer interested in this one, just because Ryan is making it, may not be fully aware of its strengths and weaknesses.
    I still use manual leveling on every one of my prints, even my taz. There hasnt been a very elegant solution for it yet.
    Thanks for jumping in the fray. I like to discuss and see how everyones opinions adjust the narrative. (wow i sound like a politician) You are right.. if 3d printers ever become mainstream, ABL will be a requirement. I was selling my makerfarm and showing it to a mom and son who had “heard” about 3d printing. After expaining it, they quickly realized they didnt have the skillset for it. Those of us that print certainly realize how many variables there are. Once those variables become a non factor, my mom could have one in her house. Until then, not happenin 🙂

    #9707
    Profile photo of Ryan
    Ryan
    Participant

    Does anyone know of a small form factor 40w or so laser i could buy? then i could laser cut MDF ? lol

    #9711
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    When I was at robo and we first implemented the auto level it helped the masses drastically. As long as we shipped with the xz axis fairly straight, people could actually print out of the box. A huge first for us at the time. We were so excited to use it when the code came out it was funny. We all tweaked printers to mess them up and see if it would still print. One of the guys , Jason or Austin, was sticking plastic forks under the bed and getting that thing like 20 degrees off level. It was pretty exciting. The original design was going to use washers as switches I convinced them to do the current end stops. My little contribution.

    #9712
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    Exactly, I am not a fan of those tabs either. You need a laser and exact thickness material. Both of which aren’t all that easy to come by for me.

    #9713
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    Not sure how good of an idea the mdf is. Mine is just barely strong enough, might not hold up long term. I tried a ply frame, It did not work. Plastic or Carbon fiber would be awesome. Anything under 7-8mm thick.

    #9725
    Profile photo of Jeffeb3
    Jeffeb3
    Participant

    People who are new hate bed levelling, but it’s often because they are trying to level a bed that can’t be leveled. Either the bed is warped, or (on a prusa style) the two Z motors are at different heights, or the whole frame is racked.

    Now that I know what I’m doing (sort of) with my printer, I was able to print most of the MPCNC without leveling again, so autotramming or autoleveling would have just been another area for mistakes to creep into my prints.

    What I would like, and I think new people would like is:
    1) A solid frame, which I got when I added the wanhao Z braces. This printer looks like it has some good support, and would stay square, so that’s good
    2) A good way to either keep the Z motors from moving when the steppers are disabled, or an easy way to get them “blueprinted” again after a bump. I have two pieces of plastic I printed that I use to ensure they are at the same height. Building something like that into the frame, and make it a cinch would really make a difference for me.
    3) Adjustable Z stop. Something with a screw. Useful if I go from kapton to blue tape, or no tape, or whatever. Just adjust the whole bed up 0.4mm for the difference, and boom, printing as well as before.

    I think something with those three things would mean you could go for a month without adjusting the screws under the bed. I also think it would let you “dial in” a really good level, and not mess with it (I’ve never tried autotramming, but I imagine it could be a PITA if it measures a different value each time, and messes up some prints).

    #9727
    Profile photo of vicious1
    vicious1
    Keymaster

    I like the screws as well all three axis at screw based zero, the Y is a pain to get to but really who has ever changed that one after the first time?

    Frame rigidity is material dependent. I am printing the extruder fan shroud now, last piece, hope it works. Either way I will drop the files here soon and let you guys have at them. If anyone has a major change I will fix and re-release. Maybe start all over though and put a thinner material twist on that itopie!

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